Thinking about your styleAs far as 2D styles go there are definitely clear differences. There are types that are clearly of higher caliber, technically/artistically and there are drawings that are far lower in scale for both skill and artistic value, but it's commercial value is higher. For example comic styles or older manga styles VS moe and some of that emo expressionless pretty boy crap that I know certain artists love doing. I don't really have a real answer for what is better here, since it's obvious if you choose to be more artsy, you will run a higher risk of not getting notice. Whilst being mainstream or engineering a style that you know is easy on the eyes will get more attention. But this is definitely a dimension worth thinking on.
Also. Why manga anyways? Manga style is used because it's a fast/expressive/pretty way to draw pictures for a story. It's possible to have a good manga with mediocre drawings but if your story and storytelling abilities blow, the best art in the world won't save your book from sucking. So if you're an artist wouldn't it make more sense to NOT draw 2D if your goal is to improve? (this doesn't apply to most of DA. Clearly.)
So I'm still pretty confused about how I want to draw, my style is unattractive enough to me for me to envy other artists. And it's always tempting to just draw more mainstream and say "screw it" to learning how to render things more realistically, but then again why would I be drawing 2D in the first place if my goal is to grow as an artist? Maybe the way I draw is actually a compromise- my love for 2D and my desire to want to improve artistically. Although that just sounds dumb from a serious artist's perspective, I guess I just want to be a person who proves that - you can have your cake and eat it too.
special hate for moe
I hate the moe "style". As far as I'm concerned that's where any sort of talent goes to die. Where your "style" is basically the same as everyone who draws moe, highly replicable to the point where even people who can't draw can "draw" it with minimal effort.
BUT I like the fap material...So isn't that contradictory? no, not at all, because out of people who draw in this style there are still exceptional artists who clearly chose to draw this style because they like it and not because it's easy. How do I tell? because even though it's moe, it's clear when they have a good foundation of the human anatomy and how to colour beyond soft cell shading or doing that ridiculous thing where they put a pink patch over elbows/knees/shoulders and add a spot of light to it. God I hate that, and I also hate it when artists make their girls shiny by putting patches of white where light hits. It makes them look like they're made of plastic...
Devious Comments
I hear what you're saying though. I don't think anyone is ever 100% happy with their style, and that's probably a good thing. The day you start not wanting to improve or change is the day you stagnate and die. Envying other's styles is part of that, and it's one of those things that helps you evolve style wise. For example, Kozue Amano's work was a huge influence on my style (I'm also a huge fan of her)... a number of people commented that after reading ARIA my style, particularly in how I drew figures and faces became significantly more mature. Not in a pervereted way I mean, but in terms of looking like they belonged to an adult rather than a child.
Ditto what you say about getting experimental, and differing from the mainstream not getting the same levels of attention. It's always been of great amusement to me that on other sites where I've shown a drawing or two it's been dubbed "not manga". Now I'm not a great illustrator, but I do find it amusing that pictures that are "manga" or moe get a much greater response... even if they're not as well drawn as things by people who've developed their own styles. Even on here, within my own gallery: pictures I've been quite proud of because I've changed a thing or two up styalistically, or gone with a theme that's a bit different get less attention than more mainstream drawings.
Umm, back on the original thought line though, I reckon you're far better off doing what you want and following your own style than trying to chase the mainstream. Doing the mainstream well will get you noticed, but there's never anything to differntiate what's being done... The way I see it is it's better to stand out a bit for the right reasons than persue what everyone else likes because that's where the lemmings are going. One of the greatest ego-boosters I ever had wasn't someone telling me my drawings looked good, but rather saying that you couldn't mistake my style for someone else's.
...and don't even get me started on the "Moe" style. It is horribly cookie cutter at times. As much as I can appreciate a pretty picture done in them, they get boring horribly quickly. This is particularly true I find of the very clean CG looks... full of technical merit maybe, but there's just nothing to hold the viewer's attention.
I gotta stop reading your journals, they take too long to reply to
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"Designers think everything done by someone else is awful, and that they could do it better themselves, which explains why I designed my own living room carpet, I suppose." - Chris Bangle
I've actually been going through the same thing you're talking about in here. I'd look at my stuff, look at everyone elses, and get depressed over how min wasn't cute/cool/detailed/technically sound, whatever. It got so bad that I became artistically crippled and stopped drawing for a good amount of time. Eventually, I just asked myself, "I don't make what other people like I make what I like, so why worry?"
At that point, I stopped trying to compare my stuff to other people's work, and only really payed attention on a technical level. An art style is your world view. It's you, and as long as you keep that in mind, what kind of dawing other people do shouldn't really bother you. Don't worry about what people will dub your work, just be true to you self.[/cheese]. Also, technical knowledge won't come between you and what you love to draw. It will only improve it. I had the same line of thought you had not too long ago (I can't draw "X" and become a better artist at the same time!). Then I realized that thinking that way will only serve to drve me insane and kill my passion.
On Moe...to mee, it's no different than the people who draw hueg muscle bound space marines that all look exactly the same, or the guys who draw super heroines who all look the same, or the hentai artists that all draw their women all the same, etc etc. I don't think it really commits any crimes that haven't been commited by every commercial art group to ever exist. I's just an easier target, as it's much easier to see it's short comings that an over detailed peice full of brown, grey and muscles. Lazy or ignorant artists will always commit these crimes, so I really don't see why this particular gourp of styles one deserve the extra hatred.
Of course, I actually really like ZUN's work and character designs, so it could be just me.
Moe, the way you're describing it, has the same problem tha many other, more accepted commercial artsyles have, on top of being generally ill-defined. I have seen many highly detailed concept pieces, comic book characters, anime/hentai characters that look completely indistinguishable. Most people don't really notice it though, due to the amount of detail in each piece, or anatomical competance. In Moe's case, lazy/ignorant artistry is just much more noticable, due to the style being so outrageously simple. Such a style, like most anime, is incredibly easy to butcher, and just as easy to write off as "anti-creative".
I've always thought most people were too hard on the style, simply because it's cute for cutness sake. I feel it CAN be done in an original way, it just requires someone who's wiling to put forth as much effort into it as most people put into their characters looking cool or sexy.
Also, have you read Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou?
As for styles, they're a funny thing, as a person who draws, you may think the way you draw is unique. Certainly all your friends or people who follow your work will also tell you that they can recognize what you draw from a mile away. (because they became accustomed to how you draw) But when it comes down to it, your work could actually be horribly generic and unrecognizable in the sea of 2D drawings. I occasionally wonder about that as well. So yeah that's actually a really good comment being told your style is unique.
Haha you don't have to always respond, Its just that I try to be thoughtful in my entries. I figure nobody cares about what I ate for lunch or how my life is doing. So I might as well throw up a topic that is interesting to think about....that is unless people enjoy reading junk like how mediocre my sandwich was, or what happened to me yesterday etc.
Well the general idea is to improve using "proper methods" before applying what you know to anime, learn the original before you try to distort it....but I'm just impatient.
As for moe, it's a personal axe. People used to like anime with a creative plot/setting or a character driven series, but somewhere along the way the studios decided to go loli/harem/moe and the japanese otaku lapped it up. Hence why I rarely watch anything now. Even though moe is an appealing style, the characters feel more throw-away each season, I can watch the whole series and not remember the character's name...plus it feels more and more perverted. Strike Witches...lolis in panties flying through the sky. really? That was Gonzo's biggest title in forever?...people's tastes change and it's kinda sickening to see that it's all just converging onto one thing - Fetishes.
Yeah, you're right, at the end of the day the style probably doesn't deserve anymore contempt than any other style. It's the people who commit these crimes, but even then it's just mostly hobby artists and you can hardly hate on them for doing something they enjoy.
ZUN is really unique, the way he draws really stands out despite how he could use a few drawing lessons. To me, it stands out in a good way but I know people who think it's crap cuz it isn't cute etc. His designs are hit and miss with me though. Sometimes it's way too random, but I always thought he had good naming sense.
And indeed thank God for Amano... it's nice to see manga getting by on simply being exceptionally well done rather than catering to fetishes. I assume you've picked up Amanchu! by now as well?
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"Designers think everything done by someone else is awful, and that they could do it better themselves, which explains why I designed my own living room carpet, I suppose." - Chris Bangle
And I have to give special attention to NEEDLESS'...ending animation. The show wasn't really interesting to begin with, but when I saw that ED, I almost punched the screen in. It makes Gainax's Yoko video look utterly Wholesome.
Although I'm glad Amano did away with the "A" theme this time. It's cute but It would get confusing. That was the response of some people to Amano's naming sense in ARIA.
Same-face is a problem lots of artists have for a very simple and logical reason. It's advised to vary a bit more. Not to break free from the habit, rather to obtain experience on how to draw other people with different facial structures.
It's probably my poor writing, but yes you're right, any style or theme that is either simple or heavily overdone is just easy to overlook or brush off. Much like the moe style or themes like angel/devil(wings), beast vs sexy/cute female warrior. It's possible to do them creatively but due to it's popularity, it is harder to do so.
So perhaps my discontent in this context more accurately refers to people who draw moe poorly. Although like I said in my previous post that it's none of my business to hate on people who does something as a hobby/past-time. At the same time this place is an art and critique site as it's core function and it doubles up as a way for people to gain exposure. It's understandable for some people to hate the style and the artists simply because it sucks attention away from lesser known artists and instead concentrates it on the 10-15% of people on DA who are least likely to improve because they use a style not suited to foundational improvement...plus some of it as you said looks butchered and therefore ugly.
But yeah my main gripe with it as a style overall is that it killed my anime. As an artform it attracts people who are in it for attention, and they tend to be uncreative in concept and lacking in technical skill to make the moe style stand out as their own.
Yes I have watched the NEEDLESS ending many many many times(mom, dad I'm sorry.) because I'd be lying if this didn't make my inner sicko beast lash against it's cage of morals. (frightening, no?) Simply because as someone who likes yuri, it hits every mark, plus it's better animated than the actual show (saw clips, didn't watch the series, heard it sucked). So despite how wrong it is and how blatant it is that they're selling loli yuri. It won't surprise me if the ending is the reason people bought the DVDs, and the only thing wrong MADHOUSE did in this situation was not making the ED into the OP.
One other thing. MADHOUSE did both NEEDLESS and Gunslinger Girl season1. Which just makes me sad if you look at the huge fall in quality. Same for if you look at what Artland did to GSG2. What happened to the quality in Mushi-shi?
At any rate, I don't blame studios for making a grab for the dollar, if anything they need it. Understaffed, underpaid, overworked animation teams leads to rubbish quality anime (cue endless cycle). Anime hardly gets the same rankings as the other types of shows on simply because otaku aren't a large part of the population and they're usually given shit timeslots like 12 in the morning. So it's logical to fall back onto the theory- quantity over quality and using sex to sell it. Although the audience is partly to blame for how depraved their fetishes get. But to sympathize, studios regularly squeeze otaku for money, through things like merchandise and DVD sales, threatening to not release a sequel to a popular title if they do not buy (DVDs cost a fucktonne in japan). Which is why series which have done poorly such as Suzumiya 2 will not drag bottom of sales charts, and most likely get another season.
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